A war broke out in heaven

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Rev 12:7 
And war broke out in heaven: Michael
and his angels battled with the dragon and its angels.

    For years and years I have always loved and feared the very concept of this verse in the bible. The most perfect place in the universe and yet war still broke out there. So why do we really believe we as humans can create peace?  I had no idea that it would lead me to open more thoughts and consideration about being a JW. Now granted that many other feel or don’t feel the same way. And again all I am doing is seeking. I am in no way endorsing any denomination this early in my searches. But what I can tell you so far I have learned a lot of things my other churches or denominations didn’t teach or mislead me believe. I always felt that this whole chapter in the bible felt out of place in Revelations. Revelations is about the end or the revealing of the God and his reign as King and God of this world again. So I didn’t understand why it mentioned the birth of Christ and Mary all over again. Plus the things mentioned didn’t or should I say weren’t mention in any other books that talked about Christ birth. Then my JW ‘s friend pointed out to me that the witnesses say that this is not about past events prior to Christ but about event that took place after the ascension of Christ back to heaven. And being that a day in heaven or to God is a 1000 year’s basically you have two days or so after Christ returned to heaven to be seated down as” Acting”King and”Acting” God in his Fathers absent from the thrown, that a war broke out. A war that placed Christ kingdom in play and Satan was thrown down to earth forever locked out of heaven in which he and his angels had resided there until 1914 when all this took place. And the woman mention is Israel and the child represents Christ Kingship as Israel’s King. It took a while before I could even start to get my head around that but somehow I knew something always was strange about that chapter. Why would a book of prophetic future event put attention back on a pass event. And it wasn’t until I read a paper on the same theory or believe from even a Baptist preacher. In fact the idea that this happened prior to the garden I had once again came from traditions and taught so long that I never really stopped to find out why it never sat well with me.  I truly had decided that the war took place long before the garden and Satan was going back and forth to heaven when he felt like it. But this reason perfectly explains a lot of their beliefs and is something I will have to look further into but for right now I agree that this is a more plausible explanation for its location in Revelations. 

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Sorry, nobody is on the line!

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Just a quick little side note. A year ago I started going to the life church. I made it part of my family life and my life big time because I believed we cared more about helping people and following God than we did about commercialized worship and rituals. I spent time in the store we used to feed low income people. I took off work to volunteer in the church doing Manuel labor projects and ANYTHING that was needed for the pastor or any other person there for over a year. I paid my tithes faithful and then volunteered in the tv booth helping with camera angles and tv broadcasting. I met a lot of different people. The pastor seem to be real grateful for all I did until I questioned why we were putting up christmas lights and Santa Claus and his throne in the middle of the church and then why we were hosting a Easter egg hunt. I even suggested that we even try to substitute the eggs with maybe scrolls and scriptures that lead to a toy of you got the question write. And not only was my suggestion put down they started to avoid me and pass me off to others. Not one time did I aggressively, disrespectively or angrily speak to them or question them about these things. I only presented issues of such things in the bible and asked if these things should be done. Now fast forward to now. I haven’t been back to the church in over a month now. Not one phone call from all the people I have once helped and worked for free for. In fact it wasn’t until I sent one of them a recent text message letting them know that I wouldn’t be back anytime soon until I finish my journey that I even got one of them to say “let me know if you need anything”. This came from the only guy that truly in my opinion treats everyone the exact same and is why I even bothered telling him. No one even noticed I was gone but this guy but that may be because he is over scheduling and nothing more. I hope it’s more to it than that but all I can do is hope. Pastor hasn’t sent me a email, called me up, or even text me but yet with the Jehovah witnesses I got them following up and doubling up with communication with me. Even to go as far as to use Skype to have bible study because they were sick and didn’t want to pass germs. I bet they would know if I was out. But yet they are the evil ones and they don’t follow Christ, right? WRONG.

Life rope was thrown.

  

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Well last night I was at my last stand,  or so I thought. As I wrote below I was still feeling out of place in the direction and talks with the Jehovah’s witnesses I was studying with, granted it hasn’t been a long time studying with Jehovah witnesses and probably owed them more time. I had just had too many issues with the 144,000 beliefs they currently have. At one hand I have the bloodline of the Jews that the bible says belong to 144,000 but yet Jehovah witnesses say it’s talking about them and the past saints and maybe a few elders of heavenly hope now and then you have the spiritual Jews most all churches preach now. So to be fair the jehovah’s witnesses aren’t the only group of believers that believe that the 144,000 aren’t real bloodline Jews or natural Jews the bible calls them. They believe that revelation chapter 7 refers to spiritual Jews. Them and Baptist or other churches currently in main stream believe that somehow even though it says Jews it doesn’t mean them and all the tribes are figurative. I have and still do believe that MAN has come up with this thought especially us in the united states that want so desperately to feel important in the plans of God. We as Men have taken something that obviously doesn’t concern the U.S and or blacks or whites and tried to make it fit us. I on the other hand see the message for what it is. Israel is the focus, always has and will forever be. Just like Romans chapter 11 explains. God will never forget about his people even if he allows others into the house or to be apart of the tree the root is still Israel and will forever be them because the promise was made to them.  So with that in mind I was reading revelation trying to understand my mentor’s thoughts from JW’S and then I saw what I felt was even more proof that this people are real Jews from the bloodline of those tribes mention in chapter 7 of revelations.  John says in verse 4 of ch 7 that “he heard” the number and tribe information. Not that he saw in the other verses of the vision. This shows that john heard this information and didn’t see it so this isn’t a part of the symbolic visions john was going through. So one of two people told him this either Christ or the elder he spoke with throughout the vision. Based on the fact that the elder was only there during his vision that leaves Christ. So Christ actually told him that he was going to seal the tribes and how many. I felt and still do that this is the case and gives even more proof that just like in the book of Isaiah that God will bring his people back to him and they will eventually be his people once again. His word can’t come back void and will accomplish what it set out to do originally. I think we have to get over thinking like the church in Romans chapter 11. Thinking that somehow because he allowed us in that this somehow removes his real chosen people.  Now because of this I felt I was given up on allowing the mentor I was studying with to even finish showing me anything else that shows any other outcome and considered the whole organization wrong because of this. This I knew might have been premature but was feeling burnt out on my search. So sent him the information on what I had just found that night and then went in for my prayer in my closet. I cried out to my Father in heaven through his Son Christ for help again. I told him I didn’t feel I was wrong and that I felt as if I had come to a end on this journey and needed direction from him to the path I should go once again. Now granted the last time I did this I had a dream about my baptism from a elder of the JW which is what put me on this path to begin with but here I was again like Joanna. But I just felt I needed to go another way but didn’t see any other real avenue left but maybe Mormons but I had already studied some what with them, or at least long enough to know I wasn’t going to be able to place a man in front of Christ or even along side him and say that somehow his approval and Christ were needed (not just Christ) to get the father. So it really wasn’t a choice. I told God that I needed more direction or confirmation on my path. I finished in tears and tired. I woke up feeling the same way I went to bed and finally got dressed and got my son off to school. It was about 7:40am when I walked out the house and saying to myself I give up trying to seek out answers and turned off my lights to my house and entered my garage and car and right then and there something happened that never happens this early in morning. My phone rang. I was shocked that it was ringing and pulled it out thinking wrong number or maybe my wife needs me.  It was Perry my Jehovah’s witnesses mentor calling me because I was on his heart to call and check in on me. Never has he ever called or communicated with me that early, nobody does. I was my life rope. He encouraged me and gave me scriptures for our further talks and made me feel that I was the most important person in the world to him at that time and assured me that when all the studies are over I would get everything answered. I can’t tell you enough how important that call was to me this morning. It meant everything to that direction of my walk. I felt added support for my journey more now than ever before. And I thanked him very graciously for the call and the timing of that call. So I will continue my walk and studies with the JWs. And I will allow them their due time and stage to show me what they see and believe about all of it not just the 144,000.  Hopefully when this is all done I will find out that all this was for a reason.  Until the next time people. Thanks for reading.

Different paths to Him?

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Well for the last couple of months I have been studying the bible with Jehovah’s witnesses.  I have enjoyed some time with them. But as I have felt before with the life church, I don’t feel like I belong. Now granted I haven’t been there a year like have with the life church and all and maybe it is too quick to tell right now. I do however feel like there is too many things that concern me about there beliefs that make me feel a little concern about things with them. Maybe the only thing left is the Mormon church. And maybe nothing at all right now. I feel like I can’t find my way and feel at times that all directions are wrong. If it’s not money hungry churches, pastors sleeping around, woman leading,  sin approving atmospheres, isolation to those who bring it up or strike at rules and regulation that is both unscriptural and opinionated translations of the bible to fit them or tradition and or finally flat out pagan worshiping rituals. It just flat out a ball of mess which I see no way out of or way of clearing it right now. One direction show people doing right but being lead by rules and beliefs that don’t really prove to be of the bible at all times. Then we have the church that allows all things including issues with the pastors and members that flat out go against things of God and nothing but turning a blind eye is being done but they care about that money though.

144,000 of the tribes of Israel is not symbolic

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Manasseh, Dan , Levi, Joseph and Ephraim. The four people or tribes that JW use to try and point out that the tribes mentioned are only symbolic and none of their descendant and bloodline are the ones mentioned because they feel these somehow means them for the most part. For one, the bible would never spend this much time into a concept identifying each tribe individually both in numbers and names of each tribe of Israel that remained under Gods family tree.

Look at the verse: REV 7:4

4And I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred and forty-four thousand sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:
5from the tribe of Judah, twelve thousand were sealed, from the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand, from the tribe of Gad twelve thousand,
6from the tribe of Asher twelve thousand, from the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand, from the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand,
7from the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand, from the tribe of Levi twelve thousand, from the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand,
8from the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand, from the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand, from the tribe of Benjamin, twelve thousand were sealed.

If only symbolic there would be no need to mention each tribe and the numbers and how they were separated. If symbolic it would just mention ” The 144,000 of the Israel” at best. It wouldn’t go in such detail about each tribe name and number just for God to turn around and tell those people he he changed his mind or that he lied about their decedents when they stand in front of him. GOD WOULD NEVER TELL A BLOODLINE OF PEOPLE THAT ACTUALLY EXIST THAT THEY WILL BE CHOSEN AND THEN NOT CHOOSE THEM.They fail to accept Romans chapter 11 showing that by no means has God forgot about his original people when it was his will in the first place that they not see Christ as the Messiah in order to save the rest. What they stand on saying is that these tribes don’t all exist or didn’t exist. At first class you would get that as well until you look at the history of the tribes found in any history book and in the bible. For one the tribe of LEVI were the Levitical priest family that never had land because they remained inside the temple. So no land was ever assigned to them but this doesn’t mean they didn’t exist. How else did Israel get their form of forgiveness without them. Then we have the missing land of the tribe of Joseph they said didn’t exist but it did. The land is and always was separated into two lands both by his two sons.

According to the Hebrew Bible, the Tribe of Ephraim (Hebrew: אֶפְרַיִם / אֶפְרָיִם, Modern Efrayim Tiberian ʾEp̄ráyim / ʾEp̄rā́yim ; “double fruitfulness”) was one of the Tribes of Israel. The Tribe of Manasseh together with Ephraim also formed the House of Joseph.
The descendants of Joseph formed two of the tribes of Israel, whereas each of the other sons of Jacob was the founder of only one tribe”……… (Link here)

And according to the bible the land or tribe house of Ephraim was cut off due to sin as a well as Dan so they could never be apart of the promises or privileges of the 144,000 gathering. That same land or tribe that was once two Manasseh and Ephraim became Manasseh and Joseph’s now that Ephraim was removed as well as Dan(by default because its origins falls back under the house of which it came before being granted). As shown in the above official map of the land separation. Then we have the Levi tribe having no land above. And any history book and bible information explains very easily that this was indeed a family of priesthood promises known as the Levitical priest. This tribe or bloodlines was essential to the sure spiritual will being of all the children of Israel They were their only hope of forgiveness and the only ones that could approach the Arch of the Covenant. They were never given land because they remained in the temple and served there. So they would never be found on a land layout of the houses. So what does that mean? It means that the excuses to use that the tribes mentioned didn’t exist and only symbolic is a flat out mistake or lie. Every one of the tribes mentioned existed and the bloodlines exist today. And if they existed how can one say that God would lie to a bloodline when those people stand in front of him wondering about their 12,000 role and God tells them “oh I was just playing, it really wasn’t your family bloodline even though I flat out said it was”???? That would be a flat out lie. That would never happen and if you say it will then you better have scripture that flat out says it and not merely implying because in the end you would be saying that God just lied to those people. As stated above again, God would never make a bloodline promise that he only said just to point out another group of people outside of that bloodline. Just like Paul said in Romans ch 11 he will by no means not compete what he started in Israel. One day he will raise his people up and they will be under him again. And even though we want to make the bible about us here in the States. It’s not people! It’s about Israel !!! Always has been and always will be. We only benefit from his grace to be included not to replace them. JW’s wake up friends you all are good enough to be with all the others that remain holy and faithful. Don’t let the watch tower or any other person make you doubt your position and equality with anyone else that has lived in your organization or is living in it today. This is all man concepts. Man wanting to be or feel more important than the rest of the members. All of this that we go through here on earth and struggles to remain holy isn’t just so we maybe alive again but that we may be alive again with Him. Even Revelation reveals his desire when it says that God Himself will dwell in New Jerusalem with all those that stayed in faith and finished the race. His desire is to be with all of us that are called by the blood of his Son as saved and adapted sons of the most high. You aren’t going through all this to remain just like we are in earth now, unable to see him or speak to him face to face or have a one on one relationship with. He desires all of the walls to come down and his revealing to be finally done,silence finally removed and he will remain with us forever in the new city on earth. All of us that are saved not just 144,000 of those that are saved.

When all the dust settles where will I be?

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Well I have been spending time exploring all thoughts and even visiting Kingdom Halls and having bible studies with elders. I still have things I don’t see or agree with concerning Jehovah’s witnesses. But at the same time I have found quite a lot of things that I do agree with that I never thought I would at first. I have removed all assumptions and previous blocks I might have had about them and just looked at the information in the bible and crossed it with what they believe and found a lot more things I agree with than what I didn’t. However the main thing I don’t agree with biblically is the thoughts and concerns of the 144,000. And this is a major part of that organization. I fail to see at this time how they came up with their beliefs and support them in the bible. I’m a person of the belief that we let scripture interpret scripture. I don’t believe and will never believe in implying believes. If the scripture says Christ had one leg and only one leg then Christ had one leg. I don’t believe in bringing up belief systems that imply things countering what was plainly said without just as much clear information being given as was previously stated somewhere in the bible. In other words you need you show me a clear cut scripture that states that Christ has two legs, word for word, before I let you tell me that the scripture doesn’t really mean this. And here in lies the problem. The scripture gives in revelation 7:1 the statement that the earth should not be harmed until the sealing of the 144,000 are done. This statement is revealed as the last action required before the great tribulation. In rev 9:5 it mentioned the plagues and locust and how the sealed (the only mentioned sealed people 144,000) would not be harmed during this tribulation period. This shows me that these people were picked from people on earth at that time not before like the watch tower teaches, that these same people didn’t go anywhere and don’t forget the most important thing is that all are male Jews from the bloodlines of the original tribes of Judea. So I know we live in the united states and all and I’m sure there are those that want to believe Christ is a specific Color because these helps them relate to him but we can’t do this and to do so is create falseness about His word and Him. He was who he was and is and his people are and will forever be the Jews(then us). So the 144,000 Jew virgin males(not untied states people ,not black people, not white people )remained on earth to help those left behind deal with what was happening according to the bible. Then we see that the bible even mentions that Christ gathered with them on earth on mount Zion(again on earth, not in heaven). We also see that mentioned in revelation a new city that came from the heavens ,New Jerusalem down to the new earth. This is the holy city on earth it says that God will dwell in with his people as he has always promised. This again is on earth in the holy city not heaven. Then in chapter 20 it then mentions a separate group of people that the JW declare the same as the 144,000 but it makes no reference that they are and if so why would it not just call these same people what it already called them before, the 144,000. These people are known as the Kings but the interesting thing is that these people were raised from the dead because they were beheaded martyrs that refused the mark of the beast. Well, last time I check the mark of the beast was not present during the book of Acts nor was the anitchrist the bible also adds these people refused . So that shows that even these people were on earth during the time of tribulation or a little before and were humans that were killed for not taken sides with the anitchrist not some spiritual raised from the dead original saints and JW’s. But again we were being told that they were Jehovah witnesses that died in the early 1900’s and the disciples and all those of the first church of the book of acts and so on. The two groups or should I say three groups(the unnumberable white robed group) of people instead of two pose a problem for me. Heaven is no longer the setting for all the things in revelation once the thousand year reign of Christ started it was earth and New Jerusalem. It passed away and a new heaven was created but that heaven shows no evidence that anyone is there most important God and or his Son. So for them to declare that the 144,000 will be with Christ in heaven and the rest of us to remain on earth without him is a big reach and until they can show me otherwise I can’t believe or stand with. The biggest thing however is to show me scripturally that somewhere clearly shows,without implying, that the 144,000 were not Jews, virgins males, and or chosen and sealed at the time of the tribulation and not before with the original church and disciples. I personally don’t think this is in the bible anywhere and I have been studying for years. But I am willing to listen. Personally I do hope it is so that I can move deeper into the organization because my time with them have been everything I had hope for with my past typical Churches. Whenever I had a question the elder would call me personally and discuss it, everytime. He would come every week to my house and there was never a time he didn’t check in on me. I didn’t get pushed aside, checked behind to see how much tithes I pay to determine if its worth their time, or get made at me because I asked questions he didn’t have the answers to and instead of telling me this and say they will get back to me the pastor gives me a definition of something as if that actually answers a yes or no question. And even their steps to becoming a Jehovah witness isn’t just one saying they want to join but it involves study of the word for weeks of dedication sometimes longer depending on the speed your learning. And even then your walk is not even scratched at the surface. It’s like studying in a Seminary school before you really start your ministry because once you are ready you are a minister and deliverer of God’s word. I wish other churches took this kind of approach. But again all is for not unless this issue is handled and I’m fine either way because His direction is more important than men, comfort zones, and traditions.